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Mobile networks, developments, services, & offers => Network developments => Topic started by: androidfan on June 13, 2016, 10:49:27 PM



Title: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 13, 2016, 10:49:27 PM
Has anyone had their virgin mobile sim closed due to calling 08 numbers?


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 13, 2016, 10:51:00 PM
Yes, I know of a few cases over the last few days.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: jagga303 on June 13, 2016, 11:34:48 PM
Funny that. Their new sim only offers all include limited number 08 numbers included according to price.
I have been told via letter that my price plan will be increasing by £3 per month as its unlimited data plan which they no longer offer, also I will have unlimited 08 numbers included in my plan.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: i_luv_free_calls on June 14, 2016, 04:55:59 AM
I am also aware of a couple of cases where Virgin suspended the lines for calling 08 numbers, including landlines.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 14, 2016, 10:32:53 PM
They seem to be quite pro-active in closing down sims. Some of the services being used by my customers are geniune services but they are closing them down regardless...its very frustrating.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 14, 2016, 10:33:55 PM
how many mins were being used on the landline before they closed it?


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: i_luv_free_calls on June 14, 2016, 10:37:50 PM
how many mins were being used on the landline before they closed it?

I know someone who was doing ridiculous amount of minutes i.e. in excess of 15000 minutes per month  ;D and got his lines disconnected.

For mobile, I was shocked to hear from one of my mate today that he got blocked by Virgin too. He bought his sim just two weeks ago and had hardly used 300 minutes out of his 1000 minutes of 08 calls allowances.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 14, 2016, 10:53:38 PM
I know someone who was doing ridiculous amount of minutes i.e. in excess of 15000 minutes per month  ;D and got his lines disconnected.

For mobile, I was shocked to hear from one of my mate today that he got blocked by Virgin too. He bought his sim just two weeks ago and had hardly used 300 minutes out of his 1000 minutes of 08 calls allowances.

I'm wondering what would happen if somebody were to file a formal complaint (and take it to the Ombudsman if need be). Surely there is no defence for a network offering a number of minutes and then terminating your service if you try to actually use them?!

In fact, it might not even be legal.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: i_luv_free_calls on June 14, 2016, 10:56:50 PM
I'm wondering what would happen if somebody were to file a formal complaint (and take it to the Ombudsman if need be). Surely there is no defence for a network offering a number of minutes and then terminating your service if you try to actually use them?!

Yes that's what I advised him to do if they don't reactivate his account. I'm not sure if he would wish to go that far but I will try and push him to do that. Its just ridiculous, he got blocked for using around 300 minutes of 08 calls.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 14, 2016, 11:00:47 PM
Its getting absolutely ridiculous and when you talk to Virgin customer services or their fraud department, they are not willing to listen. Ive also had customers who have been disconnected when they took a new sim and they have only used a few hundred mins.

It seems that either they are intent on closing down all sims that use 08 numbers....but then why advertise 5000 mins to 08 numbers on the website?

Davegr - i agree with you regarding the legal aspect. In fact, im going to get all my customers to complain and take it to the ombudsman


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 14, 2016, 11:02:21 PM
I know someone who was doing ridiculous amount of minutes i.e. in excess of 15000 minutes per month  ;D and got his lines disconnected.

For mobile, I was shocked to hear from one of my mate today that he got blocked by Virgin too. He bought his sim just two weeks ago and had hardly used 300 minutes out of his 1000 minutes of 08 calls allowances.

15k is very excessive so i understand why virgin closed that


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 14, 2016, 11:06:08 PM
.but then why advertise 5000 mins to 08 numbers on the website?

They basically want customers who use very little resources to increase their profits. They are probably banking on the majority of customers being attracted by the 5000 minutes but then using very few of them. I'd say Virgin marketing are either idiots, or dishonest. Possibly both!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 14, 2016, 11:06:58 PM
15k is very excessive so i understand why virgin closed that

It's not that excessive really... unlimited is a very large number! :D


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 14, 2016, 11:09:49 PM
They basically want customers who use very little resources to increase their profits. They are probably banking on the majority of customers being attracted by the 5000 minutes but then using very few of them. I'd say Virgin marketing are either idiots, or dishonest. Possibly both!

True! its not very clever. But my theory is that they have probably reached a tipping point in terms of paying out on 08 numbers and they have been given strict targets to remove customers from the network who go over x amount of mins....and this seems to have started a week ago


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 14, 2016, 11:11:48 PM
True! its not very clever. But my theory is that they have probably reached a tipping point in terms of paying out on 08 numbers and they have been given strict targets to remove customers from the network who go over x amount of mins....and this seems to have started a week ago

Then we should see another "refresh" of the tariffs any day now where they revise the 08 allowances to something sensible, otherwise if they are advertising 1000-5000 minutes depending on the monthly price, they should be forced using legal means to actually provide them.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 15, 2016, 06:50:59 AM
They basically want customers who use very little resources to increase their profits. They are probably banking on the majority of customers being attracted by the 5000 minutes but then using very few of them. I'd say Virgin marketing are either idiots, or dishonest. Possibly both!

I'll throw some questions as well.... Why offer 5k mins and suspend or disconnect normally used sims?? Is it based on assumption few hundreds is considered as a potential fraud or abuse? Probably yes, and that's wrong and against the law. Is it their deceptive advertising? Probably yes, and it's wrong and against the law. Is it Virgin's incapable marketing department?  Probably yes, and that's wrong as well but only from Virgin's point of view.


dlR


.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 15, 2016, 10:40:33 AM
Your mention of deceptive advertising makes me wonder who this issue can be reported to in order to force Virgin to do the right thing (either change the tariff or actually supply the minutes). It's not the ASA as there aren't actually any advertisements I've seen.

BTW one possible get-out clause for Virgin, is that in their T&C's one of the reasons they can disconnect you is for what they reasonably believe to be artificially inflated traffic. In that case, I believe you wouldn't necessarily have to do many minutes at all for them to invoke that clause. I'm sure though that a lot of those who are being terminated are not actually generating "AIT" but using international call-throughs etc. This in my mind is a genuine use of the service. Not only that but I'm not sure that the networks can "reasonably" claim AIT involving 08 numbers as they were specifically designed with revenue share in mind. This might not have initially been revenue share to the end user as we are seeing these days but a recent decision by Ofcom that considers international call-throughs on 03 numbers to be indirectly providing revenue share to the caller might have some influence on that.

For example, as Ofcom has declared that providing an international call-through on an 03 number is providing a revenue share to the caller (which is forbidden on 03 numbers) and international call-throughs have been running on 08 prefixes for around 15 years now, that would imply that whether it's in the form of an international call, a payment of revenue share, or even both (as with CallCashBack 087x numbers) that calls made to 08 numbers for the purposes of gaining a share of the revenue are probably NOT "artificially inflated traffic" in any case.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: L2M on June 15, 2016, 04:05:08 PM
Virgin,  in my opinion were unrealistically generous without anticipating the consequences of such allowances to 087 numbers on a mere 30 day rolling contracts.  It was only a matter of time before the "chicken would come home to roost!"


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: i_luv_free_calls on June 15, 2016, 04:12:38 PM
Virgin,  in my opinion were unrealistically generous without anticipating the consequences of such allowances to 087 numbers on a mere 30 day rolling contracts.  It was only a matter of time before the "chicken would come home to roost!"

Yes you are right. They are probably not aware of our forum :-)


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 15, 2016, 05:39:28 PM
Yes you are right. They are probably not aware of our forum :-)

Contrary.. I'm sure they are...


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: L2M on June 15, 2016, 07:34:56 PM
I am sure they are well aware. Their greed killed them. A bit of the old cliché  "The Hunter becoming the Hunted!"


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 15, 2016, 10:40:30 PM
Bit of a positive update:

One of customers complained and spent an hour trying to prove his point and virgin switched his lines back on and told him "lower his calls to 08 numbers"

Good result!



Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: i_luv_free_calls on June 15, 2016, 10:45:41 PM
Bit of a positive update:

One of customers complained and spent an hour trying to prove his point and virgin switched his lines back on and told him "lower his calls to 08 numbers"

Good result!



My mate who got blocked for calling 300 minutes of 08 calls didn't have much luck today. He said they wouldn't budge and he was told his line couldn't be reactivated.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 15, 2016, 10:50:22 PM
Your mention of deceptive advertising makes me wonder who this issue can be reported to in order to force Virgin to do the right thing (either change the tariff or actually supply the minutes). It's not the ASA as there aren't actually any advertisements I've seen.

BTW one possible get-out clause for Virgin, is that in their T&C's one of the reasons they can disconnect you is for what they reasonably believe to be artificially inflated traffic. In that case, I believe you wouldn't necessarily have to do many minutes at all for them to invoke that clause. I'm sure though that a lot of those who are being terminated are not actually generating "AIT" but using international call-throughs etc. This in my mind is a genuine use of the service. Not only that but I'm not sure that the networks can "reasonably" claim AIT involving 08 numbers as they were specifically designed with revenue share in mind. This might not have initially been revenue share to the end user as we are seeing these days but a recent decision by Ofcom that considers international call-throughs on 03 numbers to be indirectly providing revenue share to the caller might have some influence on that.

For example, as Ofcom has declared that providing an international call-through on an 03 number is providing a revenue share to the caller (which is forbidden on 03 numbers) and international call-throughs have been running on 08 prefixes for around 15 years now, that would imply that whether it's in the form of an international call, a payment of revenue share, or even both (as with CallCashBack 087x numbers) that calls made to 08 numbers for the purposes of gaining a share of the revenue are probably NOT "artificially inflated traffic" in any case.

Trading standards to start with? Offer is listed on their website.. This is considered as ad :)

https://www.gov.uk/marketing-advertising-law/regulations-that-affect-advertising

Customers should always be treated fairly. If offer is for 5000 minutes the only one concerned how the allowance is used is the customer himself or herself. If network has got any AITs concerns they should only bring this up with the actual 08 number service provider.. Not the customer. I hope we all agree customer has the legal right to use the allowance however they like. Virgin can't dictate how this is being used.

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 15, 2016, 10:59:23 PM
Bit of a positive update:

One of customers complained and spent an hour trying to prove his point and virgin switched his lines back on and told him "lower his calls to 08 numbers"

Good result!



This is illegal and proves their advertising is deceptive.

Customers are allowed to use the full allowance.. However they like!!!!

I was trying to avoid saying this but.. I can't believe how stupid and narrow-minded someone at Virgin was to approve this Sim only deal.. I could not stop laughing when I saw the updated Sim only offer. Previously with unlimited mins they could argue that certain amount of mins would trigger abuse under FUP. Now they actually say you can use 5k mins. If the allowance is used up in full , this would incurr a charge to Virgin of £650.. And this is what they are trying to avoid.

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 15, 2016, 11:03:43 PM
My mate who got blocked for calling 300 minutes of 08 calls didn't have much luck today. He said they wouldn't budge and he was told his line couldn't be reactivated.

Please ask your mate to ring them back and ask to reconsider their decision. Please see posts above. If they still insist send them an email with a complaint. You are entitled to receive a full explanation in writing. Next step would be TS and ombudsman..

Whatever happens please stick to your own guns on this.

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 15, 2016, 11:21:13 PM
My mate who got blocked for calling 300 minutes of 08 calls didn't have much luck today. He said they wouldn't budge and he was told his line couldn't be reactivated.

Tell your friend that he will take it the ombudsman, Trading standards and ofcom. Ive got another friend who is going to complain so i will post an update once i know his outcome.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 15, 2016, 11:25:01 PM
Tell your friend that he will take it the ombudsman, Trading standards and ofcom. Ive got another friend who is going to complain so i will post an update once i know his outcome.
ditto
 ::)


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: i_luv_free_calls on June 15, 2016, 11:28:22 PM
Tell your friend that he will take it the ombudsman, Trading standards and ofcom. Ive got another friend who is going to complain so i will post an update once i know his outcome.

I told him what to say, the above was part of it but when he was on the line with Virgin he gave up so quickly. I was sitting right there when he phoned them. He is my colleague actually.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 16, 2016, 09:30:57 AM
While I agree that Virgin must let the customer use their allowances as they like, I wonder whether there is any obligation for Virgin to keep the customer? I know that for example, if a store advertises a product at a certain price, they have no obligation to sell you the product. What i don't know is whether a product which is an ongoing service carries an obligation with it to keep providing the customer. It might just be that Virgin are totally within their rights to disconnect any customer they see fit. I do agree though that it must be a breach of trading standards to advertise a product which it is impossible to actually use. On the other hand, we all know that they get away with "unlimited" and "up to". Somebody at Virgin is probably pretty confident that what they are doing is ok.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 16, 2016, 12:30:13 PM
While I agree that Virgin must let the customer use their allowances as they like, I wonder whether there is any obligation for Virgin to keep the customer? I know that for example, if a store advertises a product at a certain price, they have no obligation to sell you the product. What i don't know is whether a product which is an ongoing service carries an obligation with it to keep providing the customer. It might just be that Virgin are totally within their rights to disconnect any customer they see fit. I do agree though that it must be a breach of trading standards to advertise a product which it is impossible to actually use. On the other hand, we all know that they get away with "unlimited" and "up to". Somebody at Virgin is probably pretty confident that what they are doing is ok.

I agree with you on this point Dave. They are doing what they think is in the best interest of their own business. If they bar my sim, i intend to fully fight it and prove my point.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 16, 2016, 07:37:24 PM
While I agree that Virgin must let the customer use their allowances as they like, I wonder whether there is any obligation for Virgin to keep the customer? I know that for example, if a store advertises a product at a certain price, they have no obligation to sell you the product. What i don't know is whether a product which is an ongoing service carries an obligation with it to keep providing the customer. It might just be that Virgin are totally within their rights to disconnect any customer they see fit. I do agree though that it must be a breach of trading standards to advertise a product which it is impossible to actually use. On the other hand, we all know that they get away with "unlimited" and "up to". Somebody at Virgin is probably pretty confident that what they are doing is ok.

Okay. The 30 day Sim only gives them a bit of flexibility indeed. You're saying that if they don't want the customer they can just literally ditch them however they like. I wonder what would happen if 24 month contract customer was told to go for the same reason? No doubt they would try to press the customer to buy their contract out. Where would the customer stand on that? Virgin would not have as strong position on that would they? After all they would want to ditch customer unfairly and make them fork out.

We all agree it's a revenue protection exercise, but customer still needs to be treated fairly.

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on June 16, 2016, 08:30:08 PM
I believe in that case as they are the ones terminating the agreement (contract) then they would have to forfeit the rest of the money owed. That is I believe how it has worked out in practice for other people with other mobile providers. Virgin could of course have different ideas!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 16, 2016, 11:30:37 PM
Okay. The 30 day Sim only gives them a bit of flexibility indeed. You're saying that if they don't want the customer they can just literally ditch them however they like. I wonder what would happen if 24 month contract customer was told to go for the same reason? No doubt they would try to press the customer to buy their contract out. Where would the customer stand on that? Virgin would not have as strong position on that would they? After all they would want to ditch customer unfairly and make them fork out.

We all agree it's a revenue protection exercise, but customer still needs to be treated fairly.

dlR

You actually make a very interesting point here. So basically, i could get an iphone 6 contract and call 08 numbers and get them to terminate my contract!!

Come to think of it, Virgin mobile send you a seperate charge/bill for the handset i think


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: i_luv_free_calls on June 16, 2016, 11:37:11 PM
You actually make a very interesting point here. So basically, i could get an iphone 6 contract and call 08 numbers and get them to terminate my contract!!

Come to think of it, Virgin mobile send you a seperate charge/bill for the handset i think

Androidfan is thinking of getting an iOS phone? You traitor  ;D


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on June 16, 2016, 11:46:41 PM
Androidfan is thinking of getting an iOS phone? You traitor  ;D

ooops i meant samsung galaxy 7....it was a typo lol....the predictive text on these modern phones these days!!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on June 17, 2016, 06:09:29 AM
You actually make a very interesting point here. So basically, i could get an iphone 6 contract and call 08 numbers and get them to terminate my contract!!

Come to think of it, Virgin mobile send you a seperate charge/bill for the handset i think

You'd need to prepare yourself for a long battle...

Handset might get black listed by Virgin as well... AFAIK especially iPhones do get blacklisted easily if contract's been terminated early and not bought out..

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: L2M on July 03, 2016, 03:06:57 PM
Just thought I should share this.  I've had instances when hitherto blocked numbers on Virgin were unblocked without a fuss from the customer.  Has anyone had similar experience?


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on July 03, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
Just thought I should share this.  I've had instances when hitherto blocked numbers on Virgin were unblocked without a fuss from the customer.  Has anyone had similar experience?

I've not heard of any such thing. In fact my account was changed to PAYG and supposedly unbarred but the bar is still in place. Sim now in the bin.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: L2M on July 03, 2016, 09:50:43 PM
Well,  maybe there's a change of policy or someone just got away with murder or the numbers shouldn't have been barred in the first place. Whatever it was, it actually did happen!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on July 03, 2016, 09:51:07 PM
Just thought I should share this.  I've had instances when hitherto blocked numbers on Virgin were unblocked without a fuss from the customer.  Has anyone had similar experience?

Yes some of my customers have told me something similar (but very few). When they call Virgin to get the sim unblocked, their security team have unblocked it and told them to reduce call volume to 08 numbers!

To be honest, ive not heard of any customer disconnections in the past 2 weeks


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: L2M on July 03, 2016, 09:55:12 PM
I agree. There might be a softening of the former hash policy quietly being applied lately!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on July 03, 2016, 09:55:22 PM
I still have one sim that has been barred but not yet cancelled, so I will see if anything has changed.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on July 04, 2016, 08:39:15 AM
I still have one sim that has been barred but not yet cancelled, so I will see if anything has changed.

If you tell them you will reduce your calls to 08 numbers, then you might stand a good chance of getting the sim reconnected


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: Viva Telecom on August 04, 2016, 01:56:08 PM
The guy driving this initiative is Virgin’s Fraud & Revenue Assurance Manager George Tonks. His name appears on letters sent to Virgin mobile customers who's SIMs have been blocked from making calls to any type of number, not just 08's. There are probably a lot of people out there who would like to make a personal representation to him instead of his faceless foot soldiers who man the Virgin Team call centre. He can be found on Linked In at: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/george-tonks-4a438570 and his email address and mobile number can be found on his business card, if you know where to look for it. If this is of interest to you please drop an email to enquiries@vivatelecomgroup.com - if enough people start contacting him directly it may help to get some of those blocked SIMs unblocked


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: DaveKnell on August 04, 2016, 02:16:05 PM
Virgin's advertising material says:
"08 numbers: Use these additional minutes to call any number that begins with 08 without using up your regular UK minutes. Calls to 080 are always free."

As this is neither honest nor truthful (you can't call any number starting 08, as they've barred access to a bunch of them) I've submitted a complaint to the ASA.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 04, 2016, 05:10:49 PM

Interesting. He appears to have joined the Virgin group straight from school in August 2011. He didn't join in a basic role such as a call centre but rather having a specific job title and responsibilities. He then seems to have gone up through the ranks rather quickly to his current role which he has only held for 4 months.

Two observations I can make are 1) Yes it does seem that his appointment to the role is what has brought the recent trouble and 2) he definitely knows or is related to somebody in a high up position at Virgin.



Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on August 08, 2016, 05:21:55 PM
Virgin's advertising material says:
"08 numbers: Use these additional minutes to call any number that begins with 08 without using up your regular UK minutes. Calls to 080 are always free."

As this is neither honest nor truthful (you can't call any number starting 08, as they've barred access to a bunch of them) I've submitted a complaint to the ASA.

Looks like Virgin have made some interesting changes to their terms and conditions. Its definitely worth a read....

http://www.virginmedia.com/shop/the-legal-stuff/acceptable-use-policy/mobile-acceptable-usage-policy-and-tandc-rtc.html




Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 08, 2016, 09:47:58 PM

This appears to be the interesting bit:

Virgin Media’s mobile services (“our services”) are for private, personal and legitimate consumer use only, and are not for business or commercial use. As such, you must not use our services in any way that is not in keeping with that reasonably expected of a private individual.

Uses of our services for the following activities will constitute a breach of our Acceptable Use Policy as these uses are not in keeping with that reasonably expected of a private individual:
Use for calling “cash back” or “cash for calling” numbers (ie where you are paid, in monetary or other terms (e.g. by receiving gift vouchers, credits for goods or services, or anything similar) by the provider for calling that number is not an acceptable use of our services;
Use predominantly for calling 087 or 084 numbers;
Use predominantly for calling international calling card numbers;
Use predominantly for calling conference call facilities;
Any other calls that result in a calling pattern or patterns that are disproportionate to the overall type, amount, duration and/or extent of calls which would be expected from good faith usage of our Network or Services (also referred to as “artificially inflated traffic”);
The sending of high volumes of SMS messages or sending SMS messages to very large number of recipients or distribution groups or the sending of automated or unsolicited SMS messages (“spam”).


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: L2M on August 09, 2016, 02:39:03 PM
Will these terms & conditions take effect from the 15th of September or can they be back dated to an earlier date?


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 11, 2016, 09:02:08 PM
They are already enforcing some elements of these new T&C's.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on August 12, 2016, 09:53:12 AM
They are already enforcing some elements of these new T&C's.

Thought they would...

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: jahirbalam on August 13, 2016, 12:47:48 AM
Good Morning everybody,

Just got a virgin SIM with 2500 mins UK regular minutes and 2500 minutes 08 numbers. "Use predominantly for calling 087 or 084 numbers" what does it mean? Does it mean that I can not call more 08 numbers than regular numbers? what will happen if I call more 08 numbers? They will simply cancel the contract? Got this SIM few days back but haven't use 08 yet.... i am scared!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on August 18, 2016, 03:40:40 AM
Good Morning everybody,

Just got a virgin SIM with 2500 mins UK regular minutes and 2500 minutes 08 numbers. "Use predominantly for calling 087 or 084 numbers" what does it mean? Does it mean that I can not call more 08 numbers than regular numbers? what will happen if I call more 08 numbers? They will simply cancel the contract? Got this SIM few days back but haven't use 08 yet.... i am scared!

Are you doing something illegal with your Sim or simply concerned you might be breaching Virgin's new TCs?

If it's the first one, yes.. Virgin could cancel your contract and inform the authorities..
If it's the second one, yes.. Virgin could cancel your contract.

Either way Virgin will try to get out of those contacts... New TCs is just one of the exits they'll try to use.

I bet there are members on this forum with dozens of active Virgin sims in their hands...

BTW. "Predominantly" is very vague and not very precise term,  isn't it??

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: jahirbalam on August 18, 2016, 08:47:21 AM
Are you doing something illegal with your Sim or simply concerned you might be breaching Virgin's new TCs?

If it's the first one, yes.. Virgin could cancel your contract and inform the authorities..
If it's the second one, yes.. Virgin could cancel your contract.

Either way Virgin will try to get out of those contacts... New TCs is just one of the exits they'll try to use.

I bet there are members on this forum with dozens of active Virgin sims in their hands...

BTW. "Predominantly" is very vague and not very precise term,  isn't it??

dlR

Just using regular 08 numbers; more specifically calling abroad using 087 access number. Genuine call; not just for revenue. I have 2500 mins of 08 numbers and 2500 mins of normal number. My question: can i use these 2500 mins of 08 numbers to call forwarding 087 numbers? For instance if i use 1200 mins for 08 numbers and 1000 mins for regular UK numbers..... will it be considered as "Use predominantly for calling 087 or 084 numbers"? I don't want my contract to be cancelled by operator! THANKS for your help.   


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 18, 2016, 09:54:17 AM
The simple answer is that nobody knows. As delaro pointed out, "predominantly" isn't the most precise of words and even if it was, network operators are known to overstep.

I wonder if these new T&C's are even legal. 084 and 087 numbers exist solely for the purpose of revenue share.

I wonder how other things would be viewed by Ofcom e.g if Virgin realised they get a lot of long calls to British Gas (for example) so decide to put in their T&C's "Customers may not call numbers belonging to British Gas".

Or what about "Customers must not use the service for predominantly outgoing calls. Customers who do not receive a volume of incoming calls expected from good faith person to person usage will be suspended".

At the end of the day, if they feel that the 08 number offering is being abused then they shouldn't offer so many!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: Ian012 on August 18, 2016, 09:20:36 PM
It would be interesting to see what would happen should someone make a whole load of calls to genuine 0845 and 0870 numbers belonging to banks, insurers, telecoms companies, energy companies, etc. Although these organisations have mainly moved to 03 numbers, very many of them have left their old 0845 and 0870 numbers operational.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on August 19, 2016, 07:25:38 AM
It would be interesting to see what would happen should someone make a whole load of calls to genuine 0845 and 0870 numbers belonging to banks, insurers, telecoms companies, energy.companies, etc. Although these organisations have mainly moved to 03 numbers, very many of them have left their old 0845 and 0870 numbers operational.

Not sure if any of these old numbers complies with recent Ofcom changes thou...

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: L2M on August 19, 2016, 08:05:10 AM
Most revenue sharing numbers are relatively easily identifiable by the Telcos. The traffics by callers are not so difficult to mark up either. Just hope that Virgin apply temprate discretion along the line!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: Ian012 on August 19, 2016, 08:25:38 PM
Not sure if any of these old numbers complies with recent Ofcom changes thou...

Comply? In what way?

The call charges will comply with Ofcom's 'unbundled tariff' call charge system or the calls will be inclusive in allowances and the Service Charge funded from other revenues.


Most revenue sharing numbers are relatively easily identifiable by the Telcos. The traffics by callers are not so difficult to mark up either. Just hope that Virgin apply temprate discretion along the line!

All 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers are potentially revenue sharing. Once the call-forwarding costs have been covered, anything remaining from the Service Charge could potentially be paid out.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on August 19, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
Comply? In what way?

The call charges will comply with Ofcom's 'unbundled tariff' call charge system or the calls will be inclusive in allowances and the Service Charge funded from other revenues.


All 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers are potentially revenue sharing. Once the call-forwarding costs have been covered, anything remaining from the Service Charge could potentially be paid out.

AFAIK It is now illegal to provide an 084 or 087  number for a customer service line.

From 13th June 2014, it became a legal requirement that businesses provide a standard rate number (i.e. 01, 02 or 03) for their customer service lines.

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: Ian012 on August 19, 2016, 08:48:15 PM
AFAIK It is now illegal to provide an 084 or 087  number for a customer service line.

From 13th June 2014, it became a legal requirement that businesses provide a standard rate number (i.e. 01, 02 or 03) for their customer service lines.

Yes. That's the essential meaning of Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013.

Those regulations came from BIS. They have nothing to do with Ofcom.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on August 19, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Yes. That's the essential meaning of Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013.

Those regulations came from BIS. They have nothing to do with Ofcom.

Fair enough.

Effectively numbers may not be complaint with current regs.

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 19, 2016, 10:04:47 PM
Fair enough.

Effectively numbers may not be complaint with current regs.

dlR

As ever the devil is in the details. They are allowed to keep those numbers running but they must not advertise them to existing customers. They are allowed to use them for new customers though.

I'm not sure what the deal is when you make an order with a company online but then need to call them for some reason. For example I placed an order with E2Save today, thus making me a customer. I then had to call about that order but their web site only had an 0871 number! In fact, since I have had several contracts through them before, I was already a customer. Where is my 01/02/03 number to call them on I wonder!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: Ian012 on August 20, 2016, 12:28:45 AM
As ever the devil is in the details. They are allowed to keep those numbers running but they must not advertise them to existing customers. They are allowed to use them for new customers though.

I'm not sure what the deal is when you make an order with a company online but then need to call them for some reason. For example I placed an order with E2Save today, thus making me a customer. I then had to call about that order but their web site only had an 0871 number! In fact, since I have had several contracts through them before, I was already a customer. Where is my 01/02/03 number to call them on I wonder!

As soon as you have placed the order, Regulation 41 applies. Do use Regulation 41(2) to claim back the call costs.

Additionally, if the 0871 number did not have the call costs immediately alongside feel free to report that to ASA.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on August 20, 2016, 06:57:33 AM
As soon as you have placed the order, Regulation 41 applies. Do use Regulation 41(2) to claim back the call costs.

How would one pursue this and what's the time-frame??

dlR

Edit by dlR

Quick Google search funds some answers

http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1448105434/3
http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/for-business/code-of-practice/code-compliance-updates/effect-of-changes-in-consumer-law-on-the-use-of-premium-rate-numbers



Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 20, 2016, 02:31:48 PM
As soon as you have placed the order, Regulation 41 applies. Do use Regulation 41(2) to claim back the call costs.

Additionally, if the 0871 number did not have the call costs immediately alongside feel free to report that to ASA.

Further examination of the website reveals an 01509 customer service number, however it is not very prominent at all. I'd say they are trying to bend the rules ever so slightly!


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: Ian012 on August 20, 2016, 03:24:20 PM
Further examination of the website reveals an 01509 customer service number, however it is not very prominent at all. I'd say they are trying to bend the rules ever so slightly!

Guidance from BIS says that where multiple telephone numbers are promoted any compliant numbers must be promoted no less prominently than ones that are not.

If they are bending the rules, this can be reported to the Consumer Helpline on 0345 404 0506. They have already tricked you into calling the premium number. You appear to have a case.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 24, 2016, 09:04:40 PM
Or what about "Customers must not use the service for predominantly outgoing calls. Customers who do not receive a volume of incoming calls expected from good faith person to person usage will be suspended".

Not quite the same thing but I found this in the Pebble (national roaming sim) terms and conditions:

Your usage of the services is generally expected to be a fair balance between free incoming calls
and text messages and chargeable outgoing calls, text messages (and data usage where applicable). Excessive volume or duration of free
incoming calls and/or text messages (generally where your use of the free services exceeds 75% of your total usage), but determined at
Pebble’s discretion, acting reasonably, will constitute abuse.


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: Ian012 on August 24, 2016, 11:50:24 PM

Excessive volume or duration of free incoming calls and/or text messages (generally where your use of the free services exceeds 75% of your total usage), but determined at Pebble’s discretion, acting reasonably, will constitute abuse.

...but they receive a termination fee from the caller's or sender's phone provider when there's an incoming call or text.

They are still making money from those calls and texts.



Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: delaro on August 25, 2016, 07:58:48 AM
Not quite the same thing but I found this in the Pebble (national roaming sim) terms and conditions:

Your usage of the services is generally expected to be a fair balance between free incoming calls
and text messages and chargeable outgoing calls, text messages (and data usage where applicable). Excessive volume or duration of free
incoming calls and/or text messages (generally where your use of the free services exceeds 75% of your total usage), but determined at
Pebble’s discretion, acting reasonably, will constitute abuse.

Could we please have the source to support this

Thanks

dlR


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: davegr on August 25, 2016, 11:28:12 AM
Could we please have the source to support this

Thanks

dlR

https://pebblenetwork.ltd.uk/terms.pdf


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: androidfan on September 04, 2016, 04:16:13 PM
Now I'm not a daily star reader (this came up in my news feed) but virgin media seem to be making a lot of customers angry.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/news/543103/Virgin-Media-price-rise-October-who-affected

The interesting bit is that they will allow customers to cancel within 30 days of the announcement with no penalty charges


Title: Re: Virgin mobile sim only
Post by: BJ on September 10, 2016, 07:28:59 PM
Now I'm not a daily star reader (this came up in my news feed) but virgin media seem to be making a lot of customers angry.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/news/543103/Virgin-Media-price-rise-October-who-affected

The interesting bit is that they will allow customers to cancel within 30 days of the announcement with no penalty charges

All Landline, Mobile. and Broadband suppliers have  to give you 30 days to leave without penalty  if they increase your fixed contract prices from late Jan 2014.

However some Mobile Companies got around it by introducing a RPI clause in new contracts. Which allows them to increase costs by the rise of the Retail Price Index each year. To get out of these type of contracts is difficult, you normally have to prove the changes places you at a significant disadvantage.