Pre caller service

[djyhkr]

After all having these discussions it is sad that DaveK is not showing any response to it. I hope he will soon come with some good explanations or changes with current T&C.

[DaveKnell]

Guys -

This is a storm in a tea-cup, and it's interesting to read speculation as to the mechanics and motives for the Ts+Cs.

Here's what's happened.  Someone sent a bucket of texts in October; I called him and asked him to stop, as this was exactly the sort of behaviour which would get the SMS topup route shut down.  He complied, but he then did the same (and more) in November.  So we withheld a bunch of his credits pending payment for the SMSes, and are now getting threatened with legal action as a result.  Note that, at this point, he has lost nothing: he's not used the credits still on his account: indeed, last time I checked, he'd not used the service at all for a good couple of months.

So I've drafted some very basic terms to give us the explicit ability to deal with this sort of thing in future.  I'd have much rather not had to, but it's a case of one bad apple. 

On to some specifics.

davegr: no doubt you have a problem with the bar on service being used to call international revenue-share numbers, as that's what you used it for.  UK 084s and 087s are already (and have always been) blocked.  And rates do change; I'm not about to start publishing rate change notifications on 7 days' notice.

pharmaa: I hope the explanation above helps.  Please be aware that, as of today, no-one has had a single credit expired.

Graham: you say "if this rule is applied" - as above, it hasn't been.

Mikael: you should ask your accountant about the implications of credits which never expire..

That's probably enough for now - Merry Christmas all, and thanks for your custom in 2011; let's hope we can happily continue into 2012.

--Dave

[davegr]

Guys -

This is a storm in a tea-cup, and it's interesting to read speculation as to the mechanics and motives for the Ts+Cs.

Here's what's happened.  Someone sent a bucket of texts in October; I called him and asked him to stop, as this was exactly the sort of behaviour which would get the SMS topup route shut down.  He complied, but he then did the same (and more) in November.

It's a shame you didn't read through the relevant threads regarding Mikael's old sms top-up service and my own more recent service, you would have realised that without putting some rather conservative limits on the service (my own service had a limit of 100 text messages per day from each CLI) then you were going to have trouble like this. You would have also known that the networks are rather annoyed at such services and withhold payment for months!

davegr: no doubt you have a problem with the bar on service being used to call international revenue-share numbers, as that's what you used it for.  UK 084s and 087s are already (and have always been) blocked.  And rates do change; I'm not about to start publishing rate change notifications on 7 days' notice.

I'd rather you didn't reveal to everybody where I was calling with your service but anyway regarding rate changes, obviously rates do change but your T&C's do present the possibility of getting a nasty surprise. Perhaps you could reword them.

Merry Christmas

davegr

[Mikael]

Mikael: you should ask your accountant about the implications of credits which never expire..

That's probably enough for now - Merry Christmas all, and thanks for your custom in 2011; let's hope we can happily continue into 2012.

--Dave

DaveKnell - bean counters often have an issue with things like credits that don't expire. However both I and the networks I operate services with have worked out a way to account for such things which keeps everyone happy.

You should consider yourself lucky that I have been generous enough to allow you to effectively use this forum to promote your own services by going beyond just answering questions, without any invitation to do so. I cover all the hosting costs of it and Mobaholic and others are generous enough to actively manage it.

The only reason I have allowed this to happen is because when I set this forum up, I wanted it to be uncensored, and allow members discuss any service they wished. This desire remains to this day, but I don't need you coming on here implying how I should or should not run my services. I have been doing it a long time and have seen plenty of services come and go.

Have a good Christmas.

[Graham]

Dave Knell: Thanks for your post and explanations. I am glad to learn that you have not applied this 90 day rule yet, and appreciate some of those difficulties you mentioned.

I do, however, think you should heed Mikael's last post. This Forum was set up by him, and the fact that he allows you to post openly here about your own rival service says rather a lot about his generosity of spirit.

Happy New Year to all members of this Forum.

[DaveKnell]

Well, pretty much all I'm doing here is answering questions and responding to suggestions and comments made by forum members, which increases the value of this forum to its members, and hence its owners.

However, if I'm going to cause Mikael offence by responding to his accusations that changes which we've made "effectively amount to theft" (which is not an inoffensive comment in itself), then it's probably time to bow out.

--Dave

Edited by Mikael. There is no requirement to direct debate to another forum, when discussion has taken place here, and questions may get a bit tricky. Customers of the precaller service will already know where to contact Dave and/or his organisation if needed. The contact email I believe has already been posted here before anyway.

[davegr]

Dave Knell,

I think you have to take into consideration that when you wrote the T&C's it may have been well intentioned and you obviously have your reasons, however users are not aware of the reasons nor intentions so we have no other choice but to consider the worst. It especially doesn't help when other services do have such T&C's which are enforced and so we expect the same from you too.

Dave

[Mikael]

Well, pretty much all I'm doing here is answering questions and responding to suggestions and comments made by forum members, which increases the value of this forum to its members, and hence its owners.

However, if I'm going to cause Mikael offence by responding to his accusations that changes which we've made "effectively amount to theft" (which is not an inoffensive comment in itself), then it's probably time to bow out.

--Dave

Dave,

I'm not easily offended, but it seems you probably are! Updating terms and conditions to state that credits may expire after 90 days, certainly implies that you plan to expire credits, otherwise, why bother? This is especially true when you imply to me that if I had enough intelligence to speak to an accountant, I would do the same.

I don't see anything offensive about stating that expiring credits amount to theft. This is simply a more direct explanation. If a bank expired bank balances after 90 days it would be deemed as theft by most rational people. Skype lost a court case recently after customers held them to account for expiring credit vouchers too.

I had no problem with you answering questions posted by members here, but I can see no good reason to begin taking pot shots at others. Justifying your reasons for changes to customers and stating why you consider expiring credit not to be the serious issue that others feel it is, was all that you needed to do.

[srikanth.nuli]

Well, pretty much all I'm doing here is answering questions and responding to suggestions and comments made by forum members, which increases the value of this forum to its members, and hence its owners.

However, if I'm going to cause Mikael offence by responding to his accusations that changes which we've made "effectively amount to theft" (which is not an inoffensive comment in itself), then it's probably time to bow out.  

--Dave

As with this particular thread, I haven't involved with much of the discussion. I do not presume that Mikael or any other member wish you to leave the forum and setup one for your own. Please don't get offended. Good things come up with debate only.

One can easily guess you have used this forum to promote your business and deserting this way when suggestions were pouring in doesn't reflect a statesman attitude.

I have asked Mikael so many time with in the last one year when rival services have propped up why can't you bring the old services when others are doing so. He never objected to them but indirectly allowed others to grow.

I hope this won't blow into a bigger proportion and ends with an amicably settled well thought written Terms and Conditions for Precaller.

Wish you good luck Daveknell

[jagga303]

I had over 40000 units and this morning my balance is 0. I have been using this service regularly and now my units have disappeared.
Anyone else?

[atinjain05]

My number is still showing all the units.mail support id.

[i_luv_free_calls]

I had over 40000 units and this morning my balance is 0. I have been using this service regularly and now my units have disappeared.
Anyone else?

Mine are showing too, all units. Send an email to DaveKnell I would suggest.

[psychopomp1]

Fellas, there's a dedicated forum to precaller now:
http://forum.3c.co.uk/index.php

However, i hope daveknell still posts here from time to time

[sagarvijaykumar]

Even my number is still showing all the units and I am able to call India too.

[jagga303]

I had all my units today but on my last dialled number today all my (40000+) units expired with that call.
Have emailed Dave but no reply yet.